Criteria for Proposed Rotating NAC City Selection

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For those jumping in late...

The V:TES North Americian Championship (NAC) is currently held at
GenCon Indy each year. Some players are proposing that this event
rotate around North America. I have no knowledge of WW's opinion on
this matter. I'm sure the powers that be will get wind of the proposal,
though.

*If* White Wolf were to decide that they want to rotate the NAC, what
criteria would we want WW to use when determining which city would host
the NAC?

For the purpose of this thread, let's try to avoid discussing:
1) Whether or not the NAC should move;
2) How important each criteria is relative to one another (we can
discuss that separately)

Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
particular order).

I'll get us started:

Air Travel (venue proximity to airports and cost)
Accomodations
(a variety of price and quality options in proximity to venue) Cost
of Events
Suitability of the venue
(room size, hours, lighting, tables, etc.)
Number of local players
Quality of WoN proposal
Quality of events planned
(number, variety, appeal to non-qualifiers)
Variety of food (types and cost) available near venue
Drinking Opportunities
(proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)
Outside attractions (tourist stuff?)

-Robert

 

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How about:

Exposure to the general gaming community?

I think the last thing we should do is burrow ourselves into a hole
somewhere for our biggest event of the year. Now, I do think that it's
possible we're currently getting "lost in the shuffle" at GenCon as far
as publicity goes, but we need to consider how best to grow the game.
That's our job as Princes when we run local events, so it should also
be a goal of our region-wide and continent-wide events.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:
> I'll get us started:
>
> Air Travel (venue proximity to airports and cost)
> Accomodations
> (a variety of price and quality options in proximity to venue) Cost
> of Events
> Suitability of the venue
> (room size, hours, lighting, tables, etc.)
> Number of local players
> Quality of WoN proposal
> Quality of events planned
> (number, variety, appeal to non-qualifiers)
> Variety of food (types and cost) available near venue
> Drinking Opportunities
> (proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)
> Outside attractions (tourist stuff?)
>
> -Robert

I would specifically say "Family friendly" attractions for VTES
players' families. Excuse my ignorance but does Indianapolis have
anything unique that families might enjoy? E.g.

San Diego: Zoo, Beach
DC: Lots....(but staying there can be pricey)
Denver: Zoo, Rocky Mtns
Philly: Historic US sites
Boston: Historic US sites (Home of the Sox and Pats)


-tpl

 

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volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
> How about:
>
> Exposure to the general gaming community?
>
> I think the last thing we should do is burrow ourselves into a hole
> somewhere for our biggest event of the year. Now, I do think that it's
> possible we're currently getting "lost in the shuffle" at GenCon as far
> as publicity goes, but we need to consider how best to grow the game.
> That's our job as Princes when we run local events, so it should also
> be a goal of our region-wide and continent-wide events.

I think the exposure issues are almost meta-criteria whose importance
will likely be imparted to us by WW--long before we get down to the
nitty gritty of deciding which city will host. If WW decides that con
exposure is critical for our "biggest event of the year" then they'll
probably just require the NAC to be at a big con or leave it at GenCon.


However, if WW decides exposure isn't required for a city's proposal
they could still use it as a criteria in choosing among cities (favor
one over the other because of one's ability to provide exposure) as
you've suggested.

-Robert

 

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I think it would be important to include having strict deadlines for
proposals and choosing sites with much advance notice. People need to
get time off work and book travel. I do think that having it rotating
could work out better for the vtes calander. being able to determine
our own time, making sure everyone gets their qualifiers in, not having
to have back to back qualifiers or same day ones to maximize
avaliability. making sure the NAC was coinsiding with our set
releases. (like making sure that its moved back till all cards released
that year are tournament legal) in fact it would be neat if it was
moved back a month. whatever new set can be released at gencon, there
can be lots of sealed/draft type events and it can be focused on the
new cards. then a month later is the NAC and the new set is legal
putting everyone on their toes.

safety should also be considered when choosing a NAC. alot of people
will be there without their cars. will the weather at the location or
crime make it easy to walk around?

quality of judges. is it really fun to have the NAC without LSJ?

access to communications. Is there wireless internet access?
phone/cell phone avalibility?

is there spectator access? what if you bring your kids, your dog,
homeless people on the street. do you need a $60 badge for everyone or
do only players have to pay? (this could actually be important since
everyone seems to have left out the possibility that which the NAC
rotates around it could be switched to another event over then gencon)

are their hot girls there? can the organizers provide us with french
maids or back rubs? if not will they give out the back rubs we are
used to getting? will robert goudie dress up in a french maid costume
and rub my back?

anyway these are the things i thought of off the top of my head.

 

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The NosferatuStuff wrote:
> I think it would be important to include having strict deadlines for
> proposals and choosing sites with much advance notice.

Absolutely.
[clip]

> safety should also be considered when choosing a NAC. alot of people
> will be there without their cars. will the weather at the location or
> crime make it easy to walk around?
>
> quality of judges. is it really fun to have the NAC without LSJ?
>
> access to communications. Is there wireless internet access?
> phone/cell phone avalibility?
>
> is there spectator access? what if you bring your kids, your dog,
> homeless people on the street. do you need a $60 badge for everyone or
> do only players have to pay? (this could actually be important since
> everyone seems to have left out the possibility that which the NAC
> rotates around it could be switched to another event over then gencon)
>
> are their hot girls there? can the organizers provide us with french
> maids or back rubs? if not will they give out the back rubs we are
> used to getting? will robert goudie dress up in a french maid costume
> and rub my back?

You betcha big boy! You'll have to shave that hairy back first but then
I'm all over it!

> anyway these are the things i thought of off the top of my head.

Good stuff (save for the goudie + french maid costume + backrub stuff.
eeeww.). Thank you mr steele.

-Robert

 

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Availability of hotel space
Suitability of venue (including access around the clock ideally)
Proximity to other major urban areas (a NAC in Denver might not be so
good, for instance)

Those are the big three in my mind.

It seems to me that it really might be best to keep the NAC at a
convention. Convention cities have been specifically chosen to meet
most of the criteria that are being discussed in this post. They have
large airports, they have a variety of hotels in several price ranges,
there are often times tourist attractions nearby, etc etc.

Additionally, it is worth considering that if the NAC was moved out of
a convention setting, then a lot of the "automatic" support would be
lost. By this I mean things like cleaning services, tables and chairs
being provided, all day/night play options and the like. Also, there
is some basic advertising that is included when you have an event at a
con. People at a con may well flip through the registration book and
say, "Oh, hey! I didn't realize they were having the North American
Championships for VtES here!" That ideally grows interest and makes
sure that people don't forget that the game is played (since it seems
to be forgotten...I asked a local store owner the other day if they had
Vampire cards...they replied, "Is that game still around?")

A possible middle ground solution may very well be to rotate the NAC
around to different conventions on a yearly basis. There are enough
major cons in different areas to do that I think: Gen Con is in Indy,
Origins is in Columbus, Dragon Con is in Atlanta, Gen Con So Cal is in
Anaheim (this year). As long as you don't have the NAC in Columbus and
then Indy in back to back years, it moves around the country pretty
well. You could cover both coasts and have two locations that are
reasonably centrally located.

And thus, my four ha'pennies have been contributed.

TTFn

 

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> Drinking Opportunities
> (proximity to venue, BYO allowed?)

It's the little things that matter. I'm touched.



--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

 

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Robert Goudie <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote:
> For those jumping in late...
>
> The V:TES North Americian Championship (NAC) is currently held at
> GenCon Indy each year. Some players are proposing that this event
> rotate around North America. I have no knowledge of WW's opinion on
> this matter. I'm sure the powers that be will get wind of the
> proposal, though.
>
> *If* White Wolf were to decide that they want to rotate the NAC, what
> criteria would we want WW to use when determining which city would
> host the NAC?

My apologies for 'stealing' the subject, but what about leaving the NAC at
GenCon and *create* a United States Championship which would rotate from
con to con?

> -Robert

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
> news:42dec469$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> > but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
> > lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
> > really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
> > standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows
>
> That's all very silly. There's absolutely nothing about such an event that
> makes it more or less newsworthy if it were held away from GenCon.

It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago

 

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<volya42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121905005.593834.37210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
> that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
> common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
> that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
> question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
> is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
> overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
> sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
> possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.

If logic worked, we should hold the NAC at some two-bit convention in the
most rural area we could find. One where the attendence would quadruple
just from the influx of VtES players. I'm sure we'd be the toast of the
convention - but who would hear of us outside of the other two dozen or
so attendees not there for VtES

I realize you're trying to carve out some middle ground where the NAC
would be the most visible thing in whatever is the largest convention
we could find that allowed that situation. But I don't even think such
a 'balance' concept works. I think you just make a big splash in a
relatively small place and, in the end, get less exposure for your
effort. At GenCon, it's true that VtES may seem lost in the crowd
but with the entire gaming industry there and with so many gamers from
so many places being present, I think it's still works out to be more
exposure in the end.

Fred

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:
> volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>How about:
>>
>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>



maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
and as i suggested leaving gencon with the US Nationals would keep vtes
on the radar at gen con

Stefan

 

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"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> Robert Goudie wrote:
>> volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>How about:
>>>
>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>
> maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
> magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!

Since there's already this crazy week long vtes right now, may we
already can.

Fred

 

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tobinator wrote:
>

> Boston: Historic US sites (Home of the Sox and Pats)
>
>
> -tpl
>

yeah those lousy NE sports teams (damn cant say that anymore)

stefan ;-)

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:


>
> Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
> particular order).
>



tourney and hotel at the same complex
major airport (i have the feeling every small town in the states has an
airfield, so major means it has gates ;-) )
dedicated organizer
size of the local playgroup (in the greater area)
location where we could play 24h non stop
food venues in the area
some non vtes stuff in the near vincinity

stefan

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
>
>>Robert Goudie wrote:
>>
>>>volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>How about:
>>>>
>>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>
>>maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
>>magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
>
>
> Since there's already this crazy week long vtes right now, may we
> already can.
>
> Fred
>
>

but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows


stefan

 

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"Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42dec469$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Stefan Ferenci" <nospam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:42dea22c$0$28520$3b214f66@usenet.univie.ac.at...
>>>>>How about:
>>>>>
>>>>>Exposure to the general gaming community?
>>>
>>>maybe vtes could get some exposure if we were able to get gaming
>>>magazines to write an article about a crazy week long vtes event!
>>
>> Since there's already this crazy week long vtes event right now,
>> maybe we already can.
>
> but right now its only a small footnote during the big gencon, whit a
> lot of the vtes playing happening in the back room of the ram. not
> really a sight that would invite a mag to write about it. if it where a
> standalone event with a nice decoration at a nice location..... who knows

That's all very silly. There's absolutely nothing about such an event that
makes it more or less newsworthy if it were held away from GenCon.

Except maybe one thing: if splitting the NAC away from GenCon were to make
the Week of Nightmares to be no longer viable - an eventuality that seems
quite possible to me - then it becomes less newsworthy because it no longer
exists.

Fred

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> <volya42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1121905005.593834.37210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > It's not really "newsworthiness" that I'm concerned about. People know
> > that games have tournaments because those tournaments are visible in
> > common "gamer" places and events. Wherever we go, we have to maintain
> > that visibility, or we're doomed to always having to answer the
> > question, "Jyhad? Is that game still around?" I don't know if GenCon
> > is the best place to get that visibility - people are kind of
> > overloaded there. I think it would be nice to have a relatively
> > sizable con where we were one of the biggest events. Not sure how
> > possible that is, but that was kind of the thrust of my point.
>
> If logic worked, we should hold the NAC at some two-bit convention in the
> most rural area we could find. One where the attendence would quadruple
> just from the influx of VtES players. I'm sure we'd be the toast of the
> convention - but who would hear of us outside of the other two dozen or
> so attendees not there for VtES
>
> I realize you're trying to carve out some middle ground where the NAC
> would be the most visible thing in whatever is the largest convention
> we could find that allowed that situation. But I don't even think such
> a 'balance' concept works. I think you just make a big splash in a
> relatively small place and, in the end, get less exposure for your
> effort. At GenCon, it's true that VtES may seem lost in the crowd
> but with the entire gaming industry there and with so many gamers from
> so many places being present, I think it's still works out to be more
> exposure in the end.

Hmm. Hard to gauge that, really. Anyway, my main point was to include
this as a criterion for determining locations with a possible rotating
schedule. To put it plainly - NAC in Atlanta as a discrete event is
bad, NAC in Atlanta at DragonCon is good. There are other reasons to
tie into an existing event that other people have mentioned in this
thread, but I was just worried about the prospect of going off on our
own and never being heard from by the gaming community again.

Eric Simon

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:

> Please note the difference between the NAC itself and the Week of Nightmares.
> I have no doubt a rotating NAC would prove viable at some level, even if I
> don't like it as much. To clarify what I was expressing doubt about above
> is whether the rotating NAC would be enough of an attraction to support an
> entire Week of Nightmares along with it (unless it were attached to some other
> large convention as David Zopf proposed).

I think a WoN to a detached NAC would be totally viable. All this
discussion about casual V:TES players at GenCon is out the window when
it comes to a WoN. Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
let's add a few days onto the beginning of it. I don't understand why
you think these hardcore group of players shy away from a WoN attached
to a rotating and detached NAC?

Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.

-Robert

 

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"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
news:1121959327.562688.50980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> To clarify what I was expressing doubt about above
>> is whether the rotating NAC would be enough of an attraction to support an
>> entire Week of Nightmares along with it (unless it were attached to some other
>> large convention as David Zopf proposed).
>
> I think a WoN to a detached NAC would be totally viable. All this
> discussion about casual V:TES players at GenCon is out the window when
> it comes to a WoN. Everyone who attends is already planning on spending
> the whole time playing V:TES and has decided that it isn't enough--so
> let's add a few days onto the beginning of it. I don't understand why
> you think these hardcore group of players shy away from a WoN attached
> to a rotating and detached NAC?

The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
order to decide to attend WoN. I think it makes total sense to want to
attend GenCon for _all_ the attractions at GenCon: the opportunity to
play other games and to attend with friends who might not be into VtES
but who will attend to play other games, the dealer rooms, the lectures
and other non-game events, and so forth - and still show up early for the
pickup VtES gaming you can get at Week of Nightmares. And I think you're
going to lose people who think about it that way and thus sap WoN of
some of its attendence. Given lessened attendence, will it be viable?
I really don't know. Frankly, I have my doubts.

> Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
> repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
> know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.

I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
me even more dubious.

Fred

 

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Perhaps if Mr Scott would speak in any terms other than "if" and
"maybe" then people would have something else to respond to. It is a
irrefutable claim that holding an event somewhere other then gencon is
cheaper. I can go look up hotel costs, gencon entrant fees, and flight
information to indy. I can compare it to costs for a facility in
atlanta and see which is cheaper. Hiding behind opinions and "if" and
"maybe" will get us no where. MAYBE we will get 10x the exposure
holding the NAC at my house. IF we get an advertisement on the moon
more people would notice VTES then hanging out upstairs in small
meeting rooms at the indy convention center.

I "think"(just as unarguable as "if" and "maybe") that the stefan is
right and fred is being totally close minded to the thought of moving
the NAC. What i want is to know why? because maybe we will lose some
ad space? because maybe people will have to travel somewhere new?
maybe his brother lives in indy and its easy for him to get there? all
these maybe's and if's are starting to totally lose their credibility.
How about we stick to what we KNOW.

I KNOW that gencon is more expensive then VTES at a hotel. I know this
because i have played games at several hotels and never incured costs
like i have at gencon.

I KNOW that vtes players will show up with or without the possibility
of advertising the game. they show up for WoN 4-5 days before anyone
would possibly learn about the game. So the actually players aren't
that concerned with being living ads.

I KNOW that vtes takes up all of my time at gencon. I can just look at
the scheduel of the events, compare it to the overall of gencon, and
realize that I'm never going to be able to jump in on a 4 hour settler
tournament or a 6 hour LARP.

I also KNOW that the europeans have been rotating their championship
and people still manage to show up. Is that better then having it at
gencon? i dont know that, but that is what we should be exploring now.
figure out what we can actually prove and stop speculating that
"maybe" everyone will leave and no new players will join and the world
will end tomorrow.

I KNOW that there are things that I would look for in a NAC that gencon
does not offer, like many of the things listed under this topic...the
criteria for selecting a city to host the NAC IF it were rotating.
Things like variety of locations. I KNOW that getting to indy is not
possible for everyone, and having the NAC in LA would allow a whole
group of qualified people to play that cant if its always stuck in
gencon. Can we measure advertisment and spectacle at gencon, yes we
can. does it help to constantly distract from constructive discussion
about provable pro's and con's of moving the NAC, no it doesnt. None
of the stuff I have seen anyone seriously cite as a criteria for
holding the NAC is intangible. everything people want, transportation,
hotels, cost savings, family friendly...all of those can be looked for
in cities. those things can be shown. can we prove that 'maybe' if
we'd have had the NAC at gencon 06 400 people would have started to
play VTES...no that is totally unprovable any more then if we'd have
had it in detroit. since there is no way to know what would have or
could possibly happen I suggest we stick to what is logically and
logistically provable. Balance the pro's and con's of all suggestions
about the fate of the NAC and decide which one is best.

There are actually 3 possible scenarios that need to be explored:
1) NAC stays at gencon cause gencon is great
2) NAC rotates around to different cities
3) NAC moves from gencon, but does not rotate around because a
different site is selected to better meet the needs of the game

It seems to me that option 2 and 3 are being dismissed because 'its
always been at gencon' even though white wolf has proven their
flexibility to try new things. 2 day championships, holding the NAC
sunday, having the qualifier at night, changing the qualification
system numerous times. It sounds like white wolf is far less afraid to
try something new like rotating the NAC then some of our more vocal
doomsayers on the newsgroup. But this last paragraph is really just my
opinion and not really arguable about validity is it so i'll use the
LSJ "if" and "maybe" immediate denial of responsibility based on
personal opinion.

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
> The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
> other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
> order to decide to attend WoN.

I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?

> And I think you're
> going to lose people who think about it that way and thus sap WoN of
> some of its attendence. Given lessened attendence, will it be viable?
> I really don't know. Frankly, I have my doubts.
>
> > Maybe you're wondering whether the "Milwaukee big WoN" could ever
> > repeat itself at a rotating NAC that's detached from a con. I don't
> > know about that one. Seems we can't repeat that in Indy either.
>
> I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
> me even more dubious.

Ah, that's what I thought. The big Milwaukee WoN was special magic
having something to do with all the planets aligning or something. For
that magic to repeat itself we'd have to again have everything fall
perfectly into place.

Not sure why your more dubious. It's almost as though you've got GenCon
on a pedestal and are thinking that "if even the mighty GenCon can't
generate a 50+ attendee WoN then what chance would we have at a
rotating NAC not attached to a con?" I imagine a fantastic V:TES only
event (superior to GenCon) that just knocks people's socks off and then
a successful WoN looks reasonable. I'll have an easier time aligning
the planets again for a massive WoN when I can control things like
"hotel and gaming space at same location". Notice that the most
successful WoN was when we could play and sleep in the same place and
the Con itself was a 20 minute drive away. Also recall that as soon as
a con event ended we all sprinted back to the vans to get to the WoN.

Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
Indy.

-Robert

 

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Robert Goudie wrote:

> Just list the factors you personally find most important (in no
> particular order).

- Air Travel (cost of flights. proximity of airport isn´t that important)
- Variety of accomodations, preferrably very near to the tournament location
- Good venue (enough space, good tables, noise level)
- Size and Activity of the local playgroup (AKA organizers ;-) )
- On-the-spot attractions for
non-qualified/non-playing/finished-with-playing players
- Area (=tourist) attractions for those staying a few days longer
(except the WoN)
- Variety,proximity and pricing of food and drinking venues

Johannes

 

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"Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:1121963756.895156.283870@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Frederick Scott wrote:
>> "Robert Goudie" <robertg@vtesinla.org> wrote in message
>> The reason hardcore players would shy away from a WoN is if not enough
>> other people showed up to make it enough fun. I'm sorry, I just disagree
>> that one has to intend to spend the whole time at GenCon playing VtES in
>> order to decide to attend WoN.
>
> I'm not saying that one *has to* have that intention. It isn't a
> requirement. I'm saying that the people who show up for the WoN *are*
> intending to spend the whole time playing VtES. Am I wrong?

I think _some_ people do that, yes. But not all. And the ones who don't
are the ones you'll lose automatically - making it less attractive for
ones who do, in turn.

>> I wasn't aware the Indy WoN was disappointing by comparison. That makes
>> me even more dubious.
>
> Ah, that's what I thought. The big Milwaukee WoN was special magic
> having something to do with all the planets aligning or something. For
> that magic to repeat itself we'd have to again have everything fall
> perfectly into place.
>
> Not sure why your more dubious.

Because it sounds like WoN numbers _at_ GenCon last year are reduced from
the last Milwaukee GenCon and I don't see them going up because you move
the NAC away from GenCon.

> It's almost as though you've got GenCon
> on a pedestal and are thinking that "if even the mighty GenCon can't
> generate a 50+ attendee WoN then what chance would we have at a
> rotating NAC not attached to a con?" I imagine a fantastic V:TES only
> event (superior to GenCon) that just knocks people's socks off and then
> a successful WoN looks reasonable.

That's probably a difference in our thinking. I can see arguments to
rotate the NAC around for reasons like fairness and avoiding lines,
expensive hotels, and obviating the need for way-ahead-of-time planning.
Ultimately, I have a hard time imaging these advantages outweigh the
attraction such that it would generate overall greater numbers. Maybe
you're right. It's just not something that looks as good to me so I
have a hard time imagining that lots of other people feel differently.
I'm sure you're looking at the same way in reverse. *shrug* It's
all ego.

> Hell, I'll betcha I could even setup a successful NAC/WoN at the
> Milwaukee Comfort Suites and make it better for the players than GenCon
> Indy.

Yea, but you can't replicate the qualities of GenCon itself. If you're
someone who likes those qualities _as well as_ the chance to play a lot
of VtES and doesn't care that much about the improvements you're offering,
it's not as much of an attraction.

Fred

 

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"The NosferatuStuff" <roansteele@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121961948.374891.169420@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I "think"(just as unarguable as "if" and "maybe") that the stefan is
> right and fred is being totally close minded to the thought of moving
> the NAC. What i want is to know why?

I'm not being close minded about it. I've just pointed out that the
things you seem to think are important aren't what eveyone thinks is
important. It's isn't just an issue of getting cheap hotels. If you
want to know more, I've made my opinions clear about what the NAC
loses if not at GenCon very clear in a lot of other posts. I object
to being asked to repeat that over and over.

> Things like variety of locations. I KNOW that getting to indy is not
> possible for everyone,

That is just silly. To repeat something I posted in another thread,
it's a Continental Championship. It is unreasonable to expect NOT to
have to get on an airplane and make hotel reservations in order to
attend it. It may be easier to attend a nearby one and thus the NAC
gains a quality of fairness it doesn't currently have. But since
the number of people who are close enough to attend a tournament
locally is ultimately a fairly small percentage of the overall
participants, the amount of fairness you gain strikes me as pretty
much negligiable. And fairness in general in this respect doesn't
seem very important to me, anyway.

> since there is no way to know what would have or
> could possibly happen I suggest we stick to what is logically and
> logistically provable.

I think that's kind of a convenient suggestion that is not the way the
issue should be resolved. Things that are not "logically and logistically
provable" still matter to people and shouldn't be discounted. What can't
be "proved" should be estimated.

> There are actually 3 possible scenarios that need to be explored:
> 1) NAC stays at gencon cause gencon is great
> 2) NAC rotates around to different cities
> 3) NAC moves from gencon, but does not rotate around because a
> different site is selected to better meet the needs of the game
>
> It seems to me that option 2 and 3 are being dismissed because 'its
> always been at gencon' even though white wolf has proven their
> flexibility to try new things.

No one's discounting anything. I've never said rotation shouldn't be
considered. I've just consistently spoken up when I think the reasons
for option 1 are being completely discounted because the speaker at
the time doesn't personally happen to care about them.

If the whole issue is weighed with all points of view taken into account
and any reasonable option is considered, I'm fine with that. If option 2
is chosen, I won't like the NAC as much but I'll still like it. I'll
still try to show up whenever I feel I can.

Fred