Intel Adopting 3D-Stacked Cache for CPUs, Challenging AMD's 3D V-Cache
Intel to stack 3D cache into multiple products.
Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger held a Q&A session with the press here at Innovation 2023, and in response to a question about whether Intel would adopt a 3D cache approach like AMD does with its 3D V-Cache processors, he confirmed that, while Intel will take a bit of a different approach, it will also use stacked cache memory paired with the CPU die. This technology won't arrive with Meteor Lake, but it is in development for a range of different Intel processors in the future.
In response to whether or not Intel will adopt a 3D V-Cache technology, Gelsinger said, "When you reference V-Cache, you're talking about a very specific technology that TSMC does with some of its customers as well. Obviously, we're doing that differently in our composition, right? And that particular type of technology isn't something that's part of Meteor Lake, but in our roadmap, you're seeing the idea of 3D silicon where we'll have cache on one die, and we'll have CPU compute on the stacked die on top of it, and obviously using EMIB that Foveros we'll be able to compose different capabilities."
"We feel very good that we have advanced capabilities for next-generation memory architectures, advantages for 3D stacking, for both little die, as well as for very big packages for AI and high-performance servers as well. So we have a full breadth of those technologies. We'll be using those for our products, as well as presenting it to the Foundry (IFS) customers as well," Gelsinger concluded.
It's logical that Intel could adopt this sort of technology; the hybrid bonding technology behind 3D V-Cache isn't proprietary to AMD -- it's enabled by TSMC's SoIC packaging technology. Additionally, this sort of chip architecture has been on the long-term horizon for chip makers for several years.
Stacked cache has proven to be a strategic advantage for AMD, as it powers the company's Ryzen X3D CPUs, which are the fastest gaming processors in the world. It's also a strong value add for its X-series EPYC processors, like Genoa-X. Now it appears that Intel will also throw its hat into the ring with this tech, too.
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Paul Alcorn is the Managing Editor: News and Emerging Tech for Tom's Hardware US. He also writes news and reviews on CPUs, storage, and enterprise hardware.
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imsurgical It's logical that Intel could adopt this sort of technology; the hybrid bonding technology behind 3D V-Cache isn't proprietary to AMD. Additionally, this sort of chip architecture has been on the long-term horizon for chip makers for several years.
Can definitely feel the defensive posture in this one from the writer. I don't recall, but when AMD did utilize it, did you guys say anything commendable, or at least stand out? You know, being around for several years and all? 🙄🤷♂ -
PaulAlcorn
I've given editor's choice awards to nearly every X3D CPU. It's game-changing tech, quite literally, and a staple on our list of Best CPUs.imsurgical said:Can definitely feel the defensive posture in this one from the writer. I don't recall, but when AMD did utilize it, did you guys say anything commendable, or at least stand out? You know, being around for several years and all? 🙄🤷♂ -
spongiemaster
AMD didn't have anything to do with developing the 3d stacking technology behind 3D Vcache. It was developed by TSMC and AMD just used it. What should AMD get credit for?imsurgical said:Can definitely feel the defensive posture in this one from the writer. I don't recall, but when AMD did utilize it, did you guys say anything commendable, or at least stand out? You know, being around for several years and all? 🙄🤷♂
TSMC's announcement of 3D stacking from 2018:
https://www.eteknix.com/tsmc-announces-wafer-wafer-3d-stacking-technology/
Any mention of AMD in that? AMD announced 3D VCache in 2021. -
PaulAlcorn
Yes, I've written about the innumerable times. That is why I mention it is not AMD proprietary tech.spongiemaster said:AMD didn't have anything to do with developing the 3d stacking technology behind 3D Vcache. It was developed by TSMC and AMD just used it. What should AMD get credit for?
TSMC's announcement of 3D stacking from 2018:
https://www.eteknix.com/tsmc-announces-wafer-wafer-3d-stacking-technology/
Any mention of AMD in that? AMD announced 3D VCache in 2021.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-shares-new-second-gen-3d-v-cache-chiplet-details-up-to-25-tbs
I added that link to the article to make it more clear. -
hotaru251 you're talking about a very specific technology that TSMC does with some of its customers
he really just refuses to say AMD... -
kwohlt
Seems more to preemptively explain to people that the inevitable "Intel is copying AMD!" comments are unfounded, and that it's rather a breakthrough technology that TSMC beat Intel to maketimsurgical said:Can definitely feel the defensive posture in this one from the writer. I don't recall, but when AMD did utilize it, did you guys say anything commendable, or at least stand out? You know, being around for several years and all? 🙄🤷♂ -
Alvar "Miles" Udell Being second to a market isn't necessarily a bad thing. Intel now knows where 3D cache chips will bring their benefits, and AMD is still essentially refining 3D cache to eliminate its drawbacks, which they haven't quite done yet.Reply -
bit_user Now that you mention it... given how long Intel has been banging on about Foveros, it's rather surprising that AMD managed to release at least two generations of 3D V-Cache before Intel has even managed one!Reply
I wouldn't be surprised if AMD is on their 3rd gen V-Cache, by the time Intel has anything comparable on the market. All of that experience will hopefully serve AMD well, in terms of things like negotiating the apparent thermal issues, etc.
So, you're essentially betting that Intel knocks it out of the park, on their first time at bat? If you just look at the amount of improvement between Alder Lake and Raptor Lake, you can see that even the mighty Intel doesn't get everything perfect on the first try! And Alder Lake wasn't even their first hybrid CPU - that distinction belongs to Lakemont!Alvar Miles Udell said:Being second to a market isn't necessarily a bad thing. Intel now knows where 3D cache chips will bring their benefits, and AMD is still essentially refining 3D cache to eliminate its drawbacks, which they haven't quite done yet. -
Kona45primo It's about darn time. Intel has finally figured out they cannot compete with TSMC. They will soon be on a level playing field with AMD. Let the best engineered chip win and I hope it's a knock down drag out fight. Competition = innovation & cut throat pricing :)Reply -
salgado18
Usually I would agree, but the first gen Intel GPU has great raytracing to raster performance, much better than AMD's second gen attempt. Maybe tons of money can make some miracles?bit_user said:Now that you mention it... given how long Intel has been banging on about Foveros, it's rather surprising that AMD managed to release at least two generations of 3D V-Cache before Intel has even managed one!
I wouldn't be surprised if AMD is on their 3rd gen V-Cache, by the time Intel has anything comparable on the market. All of that experience will hopefully serve AMD well, in terms of things like negotiating the apparent thermal issues, etc.
So, you're essentially betting that Intel knocks it out of the park, on their first time at bat? If you just look at the amount of improvement between Alder Lake and Raptor Lake, you can see that even the mighty Intel doesn't get everything perfect on the first try! And Alder Lake wasn't even their first hybrid CPU - that distinction belongs to Lakemont!